Family Helping Each Other Find Recovery

Announcer: Welcome to Addiction and the Family, “Episode 38: Family Helping Each Other Find Recovery.”

Casey Arrillaga: How has addiction affected your family?

Female Speaker: It robbed me of my father.

Female Speaker: Addiction's affected my family in absolutely every way.

Male Speaker: It has caused a lot of turmoil.

Female Speaker: It goes back to what I understand is at least three generations.

Female Speaker: It robbed my daughter of her mother. It robbed my mother of her daughter.

Female Speaker: Addiction has made our family quite challenging.

Male Speaker: Addiction has affected my family tremendously.

Male Speaker: It's affected my relationship with my sister where I wouldn't – I'd go for months without talking to her. It's a very difficult thing for everybody involved. It doesn't just affect the one individual. It's a disease that affects the whole family.

Male Speaker: Addiction is spread not only genetically through some of my relatives and I assume ancestors.

Female Speaker: It's generational.

Female Speaker: I think of him every day.

Casey Arrillaga: Welcome to Addiction and the Family. My name is Casey Arrillaga, and I'm a clinical social worker and addiction counselor at both Windmill Wellness Ranch and InMindOut Emotional Wellness Centers in Texas. I’m the author of the books, Realistic Hope: The Family Survival Guide for Facing Alcoholism and Other Addictions and Spirituality for People Who Hate Spirituality.

Kira Arrillaga: I’m Kira Arrillaga, addiction counselor intern and recovery coach at Windmill. Casey and I were in our addictions together for over 10 years and have now been in recovery together for almost twice that long.

Casey Arrillaga: I’ve led hundreds of family workshops, but just as important is that Kira and I have lived the experience of being family to addiction as both a children and adult.

Kira Arrillaga: Join us as we offer experience, strength, and realistic hope about how you and your family can find recovery together.

Casey Arrillaga: In this episode, we interview Deanna and Travis, a brother and sister who describe their recovery journey from a distant relationship darkened by addiction and compulsive behaviors they barely recognized to being able to rely on each other as a vital recovery support. Each describes what it was like before, how things transformed, and what is it like now. All this after a break to hear from one of our sponsors. [Commercial] Welcome back. Let’s hear that interview with Deanna and Travis. I just want to welcome you both and ask you if you would each introduce yourself and tell us what are you doing on a program called Addiction and the Family? Deanna: Yes, I’m Deanna. I’ve been in Al-Anon recovery for about five years. I’m here with my brother to talk about addiction, how it’s affected our family. Travis: My name is Travis B. I am an addict and an alcoholic. I have been clean now for just under three and a half years, and I’m here because I have firsthand knowledge of addiction, alcoholism and how that affects my family as a whole.

Casey Arrillaga: Right on. I’m so glad that both of you are here. What I’d like to do to start off is give us a little bit of your story. Travis, if you don’t mind starting off just talking a little bit about your experience as someone with an addiction but also as a family member. I’m willing to bet – tell me if I’m wrong that, Travis, you’re not the first person in your family to invent addiction from scratch. Travis: Definitely not inventing it from scratch. There’s definitely been addiction inside the family in one way or another, but my story, I guess, it starts as far back as I can remember because I never really felt like I fit in. I always felt awkward, and the thing that I could say that makes the most sense to someone who doesn’t understand, I guess, is I never really felt like I fit into my own skin. It’s a very strange thing. When I was 13 or 14, I was introduced to all sorts of drugs and alcohol. It was able to ease that anxiety that I felt, and so I knew from then on that that was my thing. As long as I could numb that feeling, that’s where I wanted to be. That’s was my pocket. That’s where I wanted to sit. Really, very quickly, it set off to be a problem. I wouldn’t have told you that at the time that it was a problem. It took years, years for me to even realize that I had a problem. It seemed like I was on every four years I would end up where I would self-destruct, where I was using and I guess – I don’t really like the term, but for lack of a better one, I was functioning. I was a functioning addict. I was a functioning alcoholic, and I was doing well, well, well. All of a sudden, I would just spectacularly crash and burn, and then I would pick myself up. After the first time I had crashed and burned, I ended up getting kicked out of my house, and I was effectively homeless. I was living on couches, and I was living in hotels. I didn’t have a mailing address anymore. Then I joined the military, and I did really well in the military. The whole time, though, I was – all of my frustrations and all of my use of drugs and alcohol just poured right into alcohol alone, which ended up becoming my real drug of choice, because in the Navy where, of course, drinking was kind of almost encouraged. I did really there. Then about four years, I did a spectacular crash, and they politely asked me to leave. Then I thought I my life was over, but I ended up picking myself back up. I built myself back up, the whole time using and drinking, and then I spectacularly crashed again. At that point, I decided that I was done with life, really. I didn’t want to be on this train anymore. I decided that my real problem was with grain alcohol, that I couldn’t be drinking the ryes and the – and liquors anymore, and so I just continued to drink regular beer and switching to Four Lokos. If anybody knows Four Lokos, that’s a crazy thing to be what you prefer to drink. The next four years, I drank, drank, drank and spectacularly crashed again until my body was shutting down. It wasn’t working anymore. What was working at one point no longer worked for me, and it was a scary feeling. It left me feeling hopeless, and that’s when I finally had said out loud that I think I have a problem. Meanwhile, my family’s like, well, yeah, we know that. That’s the selfishness of the disease is, meanwhile, I’m doing all this, and I’m not even thinking about how it’s affecting my family. It’s affecting my mom. It’s affecting my brother, my sister. It’s affecting my children and my wife, and I don’t even see it because I think I’m just doing it to myself.

Casey Arrillaga: Actually, that would be a great moment to see – Deanna, I’d like to bring you in and rewinding back to Travis being 13, 14 at this stretch of time that he’s talking about going through the cycle. I want to see what that looked like from your side. Deanna: Travis and I, we didn’t come into each other’s lives until, what, I think I was 15. You might’ve been 14. Travis: Mm-hmm.

Casey Arrillaga: Right around that same time. Deanna: Yeah, so there was a lot of pressure on me growing up being an only child. Then, when our families merged, I think a lot of attention was on Travis, and so it was interesting. For me, it gave me freedom to do what I was doing on my own, engaging in my own stuff and unhealthy behaviors. Unfortunately, the parents were just focused on Travis.

Casey Arrillaga: Are you comfortable saying what were some of the things that you were doing? Deanna: Yeah. I really struggled with love addiction, so I was in multiple relationships doing different things, sneaking off. I would engage in some drug intake, but I would never get caught because nobody was focused on me. I was just doing my own thing. Nobody noticed that I also struggled with a food addiction. I struggled with an eating disorder, so I was just going under the radar. I was nobody’s concern. In my head at the time, life was easy for me because I could do what I wanted to do. Of course, all that caught up to me later, and I had to figure that out. Travis and I, I don’t think we really were able to connect. I think there were times where we tried, but you were doing your own thing. I was doing my own thing. Later, Travis, when you went into the military, I remember how well you were doing, and for some reason, we connected while you were in the military. We had a positive relationship. I also remember our parents coming to me and being like what are you doing with your life? Why can’t you be like Travis? That was hard because I grew up to where what you achieved equaled love, so therefore, love was conditional. If I wasn’t doing the right things, then I wasn’t loved by my family, so there’s a lot of rejection there. I think I felt a lot of rejection from Travis too. When we weren’t connecting, I wasn’t getting what I needed. We were supposed to have a sibling relationship, and I didn’t even know what that meant or looked like.

Casey Arrillaga: Deanna, you were an only child. Deanna: Mm-hmm.

Casey Arrillaga: Travis, what did that look like for you? Do you have other siblings? Travis: I do. I have a full-blooded older brother, and then I have a half-brother who’s at least 10 years younger than me. I really don’t have a relationship with my younger half-brother, and then, my older brother, the way that Dee says that she doesn’t know what a real-life sibling relationship is, I don’t know if I really did either. My older brother, I guess I always looked at him as more of like a father figure. He was the older male that I had to look up to because my relationship with my dad really was nonexistent. Around the time that I started using is about the time that I no longer saw my dad, and before that, I was seeing him every other weekend. I think I always looked like my brother was always the constant, older male figure in my life, and so I don’t know – having a sibling, it’s still something that I guess I don’t know if I’ve ever had a normal thing. I was talking to someone the other day. I don’t know if I’ve ever had a normal experience with a family, period. I think my family is just different. I know all families are, but as far as when our families merged, my mother was married a couple times before. I had felt like I had been burned by step-fathers before. By the time I accepted them as a dad, they would be gone. There was this new guy in the house, and he’s got a daughter. I think at the time I was like you know what? I’m not going to get burned again. I’m going to do my own thing.

Casey Arrillaga: I imagine, under the circumstances, it would’ve been pretty hard for you to try and bond with or connect with Deanna. Travis: Yeah, I think so. I think, by that time, the walls had been built up.

Casey Arrillaga: Deanna, you’re coming out of being an only child and achiever and all that kind of stuff. All of a sudden, guess what? You’ve got a bunch of siblings. Deanna: Yeah. It was just very different. I didn’t know how to act or live with them.

Casey Arrillaga: Out of curiosity, did anyone talk to you guys about any of those things? Deanna: Not me. Travis: Not that I can recall, no. I mean, I can tell you why, but I don’t really remember much of that merger. I remember we moved into a new house. I remember that our bedrooms were right next to each other. We had like a Jack and Jill situation going on, but I mean, I don’t remember being in that house a whole lot. Deanna: I think, you and me, Travis, we – almost at one point, we lived there different times. If I was living with Dad, I don’t remember you living in that house, and then when I wasn’t living there, you were there. Travis: Yeah, it was like ships passing in the night the whole time.

Casey Arrillaga: What I’m hearing is both of you were running wild a bit. Travis joins the military, gets his structure. Dee, you’re like, okay, we’re going to start to connect. Deanna, had you noticed at all that cycle that Travis is talking about where it’s like four years and then crash, four years and crash, and like that? Deanna: I became conscious of it when you were out of the military. When you got out and you were struggling then, that’s when I realized there might be a problem. I was like, man, he was doing so well, and we were all so proud of him. I think it was – I want to say 2015. I remember this because it was my first job at a treatment center and when I was really studying addiction and immersing in that. Not only was I recognizing some of my own patterns but then it made sense your patterns a little bit, but I couldn’t help you.

Casey Arrillaga: When you say I couldn’t help you, Deanna, what was that like for you to recognize it and feel like you couldn’t do anything? Deanna: I do think that there was some effort from my end, but it wasn’t a good effort. In fact, this is where before I was ever in Al-Anon. I think when you and Chelsey had moved home.

Casey Arrillaga: Just to clarify for our audience, Chelsey [SP] is your wife. Travis: Yes, she is my wife. Deanna: There was some recognition of a drinking problem. For me, I was trying to help, or rescue, or something but from behind the scenes, and I was trying to do this whole puppet play, telling people what to do and directing everybody.

Casey Arrillaga: How’d that go? Deanna: Yeah, it did not go well. I think everybody in the family was in a cycle of resentment, frustration. Everybody was taking it out on each other. It wasn’t just you, Trav. Everybody was reacting and not just towards you but towards each other, right? It was a very sick cycle that wasn’t productive.

Casey Arrillaga: Deanna, I can see that you’re working in a treatment center. You’re getting some knowledge. Okay, I’m going to jump in and fix this. I have to ask. Did that impact your relationship with Travis and his wife? Deanna: Yeah, I had resentment with everybody. Nobody was doing what they were supposed to do. Travis was still drinking. They had a son to support and all that. Everybody’s still continuing in the cycle, and nobody’s doing what I think that they should be doing. Me trying to help everybody, there is some selfishness to that, and then when they weren’t doing what they were supposed to, of course. I was angry and resentful and frustrated. It was uncomfortable. It was uncomfortable being around the family.

Casey Arrillaga: When you say there was some selfishness to it, do you mind explaining that a little bit? Deanna: One thing that I really struggle with is belonging and so being a part of, whether it’s being part of a family, or a group, or something. When I’m trying to help, there’s selfishness there of self-seeking validation. Maybe I’m trying to get something in return, whether it’s emotionally or something. I later recognize that, but when I wasn’t receiving that, it was natural for me to get resentful and for me to feel more angry and for it to charge up all those underlying things I’m already struggling with.

Casey Arrillaga: Travis, do you remember Deanna trying to jump in? Travis: I don’t know if I would necessarily remember her trying to jump in. Like she said, I think it was a little bit more behind the scenes. I mean, I was just in a selfish cycle too, so I had blinders on through a whole lot. I do remember the sickness in the family as a whole. I do remember uncomfortable Christmas. Me, I just didn’t want to be there. I would find a corner, and I would go hide. I would play on my phone, and I would just emerge myself in that because I’m the kind of selfish addict and alcoholic that, whatever I can do, just take myself out of the situation. That’s what I’m going to do. I’m not going to face anything at all because that’s what I’ve been doing my whole life is not facing anything at all. I don’t know if I necessarily remember specifically her trying to solve anything, or if we’re only able to do what I want to, I’d feel better. I don’t know if I remember any of that, but I do remember to be very uncomfortable of being in my parents’ house or being at my brother’s house. Anytime that the whole family was together, it was just not a cohesive family unit.

Casey Arrillaga: Yeah. I’m really hearing that in the way it went down and maybe the way it was set up. Deanna, if I can ask you – Travis was saying he doesn’t remember much history of addiction on his side of the family. What about you and yours? Deanna: Yeah. My grandfather, he was an alcoholic. He died from lung cancer right before I was born. My mom, she was the adult child with alcoholic symptoms. That’s been an open discussion between us the past few years, and her brother, my uncle, passed away last year from alcoholism. That’s definitely a pattern on my mom’s side. Travis and I have had discussions. Maybe we see some addict traits with my own dad, and I see a lot of those traits with me, whether it’s an eating disorder for me, being a workaholic, or my love addiction patterns. All that stems from somewhere, and I’ve seen those patterns in my own family. Going into therapy, being in the program for many years, definitely have noticed those things and for me to work on on my own.

Casey Arrillaga: I think that’s brilliant to be able to make that shift from everyone else needs to change so I can be okay, which both of you have some amount of that going on. I need to change something so that I can feel okay, whether it’s changing my own chemical stuff going on inside my brain or I need to change everyone around me, which if we want to get really technical is still a way to try and change my own brain chemistry. It’s just more roundabout. There is that thought of, okay, this feels uncomfortable. I need to change it and being able to recognize what are some of the ways that I do that? Travis, I love that you said, hey, if it’s not the bottle, it could be the phone. If it’s not the phone, it’ll be Sudokus, whatever. It’s whatever I need to do to tune out and where, Deanna, you can get caught up in that in your own compulsive behavior but also in trying to fix and control other people. Like you said, if you would change, if you would act right, then I’d be okay. It’s one of those big lies around compulsive behavior is that, if I could just get the tumblers to fall into place, then I’d be okay. Then, of course, even worse, now I need to keep them that way, which pretty much never works out, right? Even if you get everyone to behave, they’re not going to stay behaved. Even if you get to that nice mellow high or drunk, it’s not going to stay that way. We’re always stuck chasing it more and more and more. In there, Deanna, I appreciate you talking a little bit about your own history and the family history. I think it partly jumped out. As soon as somebody says, well, I started to go work in the addiction field, pretty much everybody I know that works at a treatment center has a reason to be there, unless they just stumble in. There was a want ad, and they’re like, oh, I guess I’ll try that out. In my experience, those folks don’t stick around very long. The people who stick around addiction treatment are people who feel a connection to it. Were you aware of some of that connection when you started working in the field? Deanna: No. That’s the God moment there. I had a friend who worked at a treatment center, and I was waiting on my license to come in. They told me about this job. I applied. I had another job opportunity as well, and it just so happened that fell through, and the treatment center job came through. I didn’t have any experience working in addiction and then, obviously, very unaware my own family addiction patterns. It was one of those I got a job at a treatment center, and some reason, I felt so connected with this population, not understanding why. Wow! I totally get this. Spirituality? Yeah. That’s where I grew a passion there. Then as I started reading more and helping people more, I’m like why do I relate to this so much? I remember reading Pia Mellody’s Facing Codependence. All of a sudden, there’s this lightbulb in my head, and everything just made sense. For so long, I felt so crazy and very uncomfortable in my own skin as well, and that just clicked for me. Then, when I started diving into more the codependency stuff and then asking more questions with my mom and her side of the family, wow, it just all made sense. Of course, it wasn’t until a couple years later when I was like, wait, I have problems I need to actually work on. Yes, I built awareness, but now I need to take that action and do something about that. Really, that was a huge God moment that led me to that job, that opened doors for me and my recovery rather than just my professional life.

Casey Arrillaga: Nice. As a little sidebar, I fell into, I like to say, addiction recovery in the same sort of way. Another job fell through that I was applying for. It wasn’t coming through. I’m moving to a new state, and someone says, well, there’s this – what they’d say? A boys’ ranch where you get these guys up and you give them medications, do you think you can do that? I’m like, look, at this point, I just need the job. Yeah, sure, I’ll show up. I show up for the interview, and the guy says you know anything about recovery? It turns out legally they can’t ask are you in recovery. They can say do you know anything about recovery? Of course, all of us here in recovery, oh, yeah, man, I’m a couple years sober and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The guy’s like, all right, so yeah, let’s sign you on. I like to say I went to treatment 15 years ago and never left. Deanna, you were talking about your shift into I need to get recovery. Travis, can you talk about what that looked like for you? Travis: For my active drinking and drugging, that career that I had, it was probably in the last six months is when I really started being hopeless, and it’s when it really stopped working for me. My skin was turning yellow. My body wasn’t processing it like it used to. Just a couple beers was putting me in a blackout state, and my mind couldn’t reconcile that fact when before I was drinking a 30 pack. I really don’t know if I realized that I was powerless over it yet, but I definitely realized it wasn’t working anymore. I really felt like I had lost a sidekick, like my best friend. My ride or die that was with me for the last 15, 16 years had given up on me and was nobody where to be found. I didn’t know what to do. My solution was gone, and I was scared. I’ve been scared my whole life, but then it was like the first – it was terrifying. I didn’t know what to do. I knew I had friends on Facebook who had gotten sober. I really didn’t know much about any 12-step programs. I had gone into some rooms before that because my back hurt and I had to get my life off of it. I’ve gone to a couple meetings, but I wasn’t there to listen. I wasn’t there to identify with anybody. I wasn’t there to see the similarities. I was there to pick up chip, sign a page, check the boxes and get out. I was in this hopeless, scared state in the last few months of my career, and I had known some friends who had gotten sober on Facebook. I saw them taking pictures of these coins. I’m two months sober, whatever, and I started reaching out to them. They were like just get to a meeting. I didn’t know how to do that. I didn’t want to do that. I was scared. I started reaching out then. Then I would wake up in the morning, and my Google search results in a blackout state would be like AA meetings. I was trying. It’s funny because it was when I was drunk is when I was really wanting recovery. I wanted something else, but when I was sober, I was like, ahh, I was just drunk. I don’t really mean it. The last day that I drank, I was coming home from a business trip. It’s funny. If you read the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous, it’s always these businessmen, and they’re getting into trouble on business trips. That’s what happened. I was on a business trip at Dallas. I live in San Antonio. It’s four hours away. It took me four hours to get halfway home because I kept having to pull over to either throw up or to get more drinks just to maintain, just to keep my hands from shaking, just to be able to physically make it home. Then I got pulled over by a Bell County Sheriff. They made me walk a line, and I was like it was – the shoe was up – in fact, I’d been pulled over before. I did that foxhole prayer of just get me out of this one, God, and I’ll never drink again. This time, when I saw lights behind me, I went, oh, here we go. I didn’t even try. I had given up so completely that I didn’t even try to – I was just like, well, I’m done. I think I had my first real God moment in the drunk tank there because it was the first time that I conceded to my inner most self this isn’t working. I can’t continue going on like this. I’m clearly powerless over this. Without even knowing anything about Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous or anything, I had just a kind of Step 1. I had completely conceded to it before I even knew anything about it. The next day, I got bailed out. My parents came and picked me up, which wasn’t fun. I would rather probably just stay in there. They drove me the two hours back home. We didn’t really talk. All I had said is that I think I need help, and they’re like, “Well, yeah.” Then they said, “Don’t worry. When you get home, your sister is already there.” I was like, “Well, what is she going to do?” Then a cartoon light bulb came above my head. I’m like, oh, yeah, what does she do for a living? I was searching and looking for help with these Facebook friends that are three ways disconnected from me. I’m trying to find help in any way that I can, and I have a sister who is all the help I would ever need. When I got back home, I packed a bag, and I got into a treatment center. I went to that treatment center. I gave it everything that I could, and I found God there. It’s a special place for me and never been happier and more free ever since then.

Casey Arrillaga: Deanna, what was it like for you to presumably get a call from your family saying, okay, Travis is in jail or whatever it is? What was that side of the experience for you? Deanna: I remember it was a Sunday. Chelsey called me crying, so I just went over and said, “Hey, what’s going on?” She told me the situation, and I said, “All right, what do you need?” I think because at that point I had been in Al-Anon for a couple years already so I had already detached to where I was like when Travis is ready and needs help he can always ask me, rather than me being, I guess, proactive and trying to rescue and fix the situation.

Casey Arrillaga: Can you talk about how Al-Anon helped you make that change from I’m going to go fix it to I’ll be here when he’s ready? Deanna: Yeah, I think it allowed me to let go of control of everything I really don’t have control over. It allowed me to focus on me. Really, it was when I did my fourth step and I realized how many problems I really have. I was like, well, I have a lot of work to do, putting all my attention on that and how I can resolve some of that. It took a lot of attention from everything else outside of my control. Learning how to detach with love, stop to trying to control not only Travis, I mean, even my own husband and anybody in my life, so it really gave me a sense of freedom to really just enjoy life with acceptance of whatever happens and giving me the skills to deal with life problems and learning how to adapt and lean on my higher power, my God more Yeah, there was a lot of relief in that, in the program, and so when Travis was ready, I was like, all right, God did His thing. I was just there and available. When I heard that he was ready to go to treatment, I was like, okay, I’ll make a phone call. At that point, I also had to talk to my sponsor and my supervisor. We had to discuss boundaries. Again, this is his journey. Just because I’m helping him get into treatment, ultimately, that’s his choice, and everything he does each day at that treatment center is his choice and his journey and not mine. I don’t remember having much fear while he was there. I don’t remember ever feeling concerned if he was going to leave early or anything. I think I had some concerns when he left, going back to his home and how he was going to live with that, but again, that didn’t consume me. I didn’t feel controlled by that fear, so I was just happy to see him get help. I think I was just so happy for him. I’m still very proud and happy to see him grow and see what he’s accomplished in the program and how many people he’s helped so, yeah, very excited for him.

Casey Arrillaga: When you talk about not falling deep into the fear, which is something that most family members struggle with when their loved ones in treatment, it’s a relief for the first week or so. You’re like, oh, man, they made it. They’re safe. Then, all of a sudden, it’s like, oh, man, what’s going to happen when they leave? Are they really getting it, blah, blah, blah? Could you speak to how much your recovery work helped you to be at more peace while he was in treatment and afterwards? Deanna: I think it was because I was at peace well before he got the help he needed that, if he were to relapse, I’m going to be okay because I’ve been okay. Again, this had to be his journey and for me to step aside. For the last I think it was a couple years before he actually went into treatment, I had taken a step back, so I already had that practice there. Yeah, I guess that’s what helped me and just trusting God in the process. If he’s to relapse, that is part of his journey, and I will be okay. Hopefully, he will too.

Casey Arrillaga: Travis, what was it like for you to go through that experience of treatment? I don’t know if you reflected at the time that, hey, my sister works at a treatment center, etc., etc., but just what was it like for you to go through that experience? Travis: I was still in so much fear. I didn’t get relief from fear immediately. I knew that I was in a safe place. I knew that there wasn’t anything that was going to get me there, but it definitely gave me a sense of relief. Obviously, I wasn’t going to use while I was there unless I really put my mind to it and made some toilet hooch or something. I do remember that I found God there, and I was starting to feel really good. My body felt better, and my mind was getting clearer. Spiritually, I was feeling. I was on that pink cloud that everyone talks about. Then I was three days away from processing out of there, and I just was struck like by lightening with fear of, oh, no, I’m about to leave. I’m going to be back out in the real world. I’m not going to be in this bubble. I’m not going to be protected anymore. I went straight to my counselor, and I was trying to figure out how I was going to extend myself for 15 more days. Again, that was a selfish thing. Meanwhile, my wife was at home with now two kids being a single mom, and I’m there selfish trying to figure out how I’m going to stay in treatment for another 15 days so I don’t have to go home. Again, I don’t have to face anything head on. Luckily, I had the counselor who I did because they told me exactly what I needed to hear and didn’t let me extend, and I had to go out into the so-called real world and face everything. You know what I did that first day out? I didn’t have a license because your boy got his license taken from him, and I walked to my first meeting. I found a meeting, and I walked there. I sat down, and I didn’t burst into flames. I talked in that meeting, and people after the meeting got up and hugged me and shook my hand. I got a bunch of phone numbers. At that moment is when I really got my relief and freedom from a lot of fear, that I knew I could do this and everything’s going to be okay. I had the fellowship on my side. I had the program on my side, but most importantly, I have my God on my side. Before that, the God that I was raised with wasn’t necessarily on my side. That God was some thing in the sky that I was supposed to fear, and I was supposed to worship. Now, my understanding of my God is someone who I can walk with, someone whom God means a friend. It's someone who I just talk to like I’m talking to you. My God is someone who I have a relationship with, and it’s completely different. It’s changed my life. I would’ve never have gotten that if I wouldn’t have gone to treatment because it was at the treatment center where I first found out that I could make a God of my own understanding, and it was nothing that I had ever experienced before. Before that, it was your God is this. You memorize these lines. This is who your God is. This is the denomination we are. We’re against everyone else, and don’t make God mad.

Casey Arrillaga: That’s a huge difference. Travis: It’s a mountain of difference.

Casey Arrillaga: It’s one of my personal favorite subjects around spirituality and that sense of connection and what you found for a personal relationship, how important that is for people in recovery and how misunderstood that can be for people outside of recovery who are looking in that thought of, oh, no, I need to join this cult and conform to something. I’m going to have to, like you said, rememorize some lines and kneel when everybody kneels and stand up when they stand up and all this kind of stuff and go get saved. That’s not the same thing at all. Let’s take a break to hear from one of our sponsors, and then we’ll finish our interview with Deanna and Travis. [Commercial] Welcome back. Let’s hear the rest of that interview with Deanna and Travis. While you’re at the treatment center, did you all engage in family work or family programming there, and what, if any, difference did that make for you? Deanna: Yeah. I participated in two weeks of the family workshop that was offered at his treatment center. On both occasions, your wife Chelsey was there as well as Lori [SP] and John, our parents, and then the second week your older brother was there.

Casey Arrillaga: I want to check on that because you talked about the situation where you said everybody had been at each other’s throat for a while. Everybody’s going through their own stuff. What was it like to get everybody together in the same room and say, okay, now we’re doing some work? Travis: It was work. I don’t think I was as ready as I could be for that, to face that with the whole family. The truth is that me going to treatment set off a chain reaction. It disrupted the whole family dynamic because we all had these roles. I felt like the black sheep, and I was always the screw up. I was the drunk one. There’s all these roles. By me seeking help, I think it started highlighting other roles in the family that were toxic as well. I don’t think anything ugly like the light’s being shined on it, and I think that’s what happened in the beginning. Granted, family is night and day now. As much as this is a family illness, it’s also a family recovery, and I think that’s one of my favorite things. In the beginning, it was work, and it wasn’t necessarily pretty work. It wasn’t easy. The isms, the sickness was fighting hard as hell to keep its spot where it liked to be, and we were fighting hard as hell to change.

Casey Arrillaga: For what you’re saying, from the afterwards perspective, it sounds like you’ve been able to make some of that change and sustain it. Is that correct? Travis: Yeah. I mean, I think everybody individually has done things to better themselves, and as a result, the family has gotten better. I know, for my section, my little family, for wife and two kids, my wife started going to Al-Anon, and then, as a result, found out that she had some other things going on. Actually, she’s five days more sober than I am. I mean, I wake up earlier than she does, so I’m more sober. She’s sober too. Our kids are in therapy, and they’re getting the help. I know that my mom is getting professional help. It’s across the board. I think everybody’s better, and we’ve set up healthy boundaries that just make us more of a cohesive family. We still got our quirks. Every family does. We still got our things, and every once in a while, people will get a little sideways at each other. I think that’s just family. As a whole, we are much more cohesive. Before, it was let’s make sure that we look good from the outside, and it doesn’t really matter other than that. We just want to make sure that the window shopping looks good, and now we’re actually healing and good from the inside, which shines on the outside. I think that’s what everybody wanted in the first place.

Casey Arrillaga: I’ll say, as a guy who loves to defend the work that – just hearing that really warms my heart. Deanna, if I could ask – for you, as someone who worked at a treatment center, now you get to go sit down in the seat as, okay, now I’m showing up as a family member. What was that family member experience like for you doing family work at the treatment center? Deanna: I actually was very excited about that opportunity. I’ve been in therapy myself, and I love going to therapy. For me, I’m able to switch off the therapist hat. I think, at least from my perspective – maybe some family members might say otherwise, but I think it was a very difficult experience, though. I think it brought up a lot more problems that were already there. I think it just brought it up to the surface for us to really address. I can recall a time during that experience. It wasn’t addressed the best way. It just happened to get addressed just on issues that were going on, and I don’t even remember what they were. I don’t think it was that big of a deal, but it just exploded. Like what Travis was saying, that with Travis focusing on his recovery, Chelsey then focusing on her recovery, me learning a new role in the family, taking a step back. Everybody had their issues with each other. It wasn’t just Travis. It was everybody. For many of us, just redirecting our attention from everybody else to just ourselves really helped. I can’t say that our family is perfect. I still see some stuff. I think, for me, I’m handling it differently to where before there was a lot of manipulation and gossiping going on on my end, and now, it’s like I don’t have to engage in those behaviors to be accepted or part of the family. I always look to Travis because we have this connection now, now that he’s sober. I think you referred it as we’re each other’s battle buddies. When we go to family events, at least we have each other there, and we’re able to connect. I think we’re able to connect better as a family with other family members, but if we ever feel overwhelmed, Travis and I can talk on the side. Having him there for support, that emotional, mental support is really helpful, and so whatever else happens in the family, we’re going to get through it. Yeah, and I do think we operate a lot better now. There’s definitely a world of a difference, especially our parents. When they engaged in the family workshop, I think they gained a lot of insight, and I see a lot less control coming from them to us. A lot of people are playing a role in how our family operates now. It’s much better.

Casey Arrillaga: That is beautiful to hear, and I love the full circle thing of, yeah, at some point, Travis is saying, hey, Deanna, I need support, and now you, Deanna, can turn and say, hey, Travis, I need support and that you support each other. It changes that dynamic from, hey, here’s the person with the problem, and here’s the person with the solution to people who can work with each other through problems and solutions. That is just so cool to hear. Talking a little more about how, if at all, you guys see your recoveries interact with each other now and what it’s done for your relationship as two siblings. Deanna: I love our relationship now. Travis: No. I wholeheartedly agree, 100%. It’s what I imagine a sibling relationship is supposed to be. Deanna: Yeah. Travis: If no one else is going to answer the phone, I know that Dee will, and she’ll drop what she’s doing and talk to me. That’s an amazing thing. As far as how our recoveries work together, I can only speak for myself, but I know that my recovery has made me a more honest person. It’s made me a happier person, and it’s made me a more free person. I think that it has just allowed me to take down that wall just for a moment just to let Dee over and build that connection to where I don’t need to have that wall anymore. It’s allowed me to where, at family events, I’m not the guy who’s hiding out in the corner playing on the phone anymore. I mean, sometimes I got to get my Candy Crush on, but I’ll look up and Dee will be staring at me. She’s like, “What are you doing over there?” I’ll get up and I’ll interact with the family. I think it’s just allowed me to bring down those defensive mechanisms that I’ve put in place, and it’s just allowed me to connect with her on much, much deeper level as well as just other people in my life. You know what I mean? It’s allowed me to be a better husband, a better father. It’s so strange when I talk about this because it’s very hard for me to relate to the person that I was four years ago. It’s almost like I disassociate from it completely because it’s a completely different person sitting here before you right now. I’ve said it before that, if I walked out the door three and a half years ago and walked back in the same guy that I was right now, you’d be like, oh, my God, it’s a – start a religion because it’s a completely different person, and that’s what my recovery has done for me. Deanna: Yeah. I think, for me, I – dealing with a lot of isolation and rejection growing up, I dealt with a lot of stuff by myself as an only child. When going through a lot of bad things that were happening in our household, I was always alone in that process, and so looking for support, looking to belong somewhere. I mentioned, when I first got into the field, it was like I relate to these people, and then, when I got in the meeting rooms, it was like this sense of belonging. I remember doing work with my sponsor and going through the fourth step and being like I can’t share this with her. She is going to fire me if she hears this and just feeling that fear of rejection again, all this stuff because of my fourth step. I remember omitting things in my fifth step when I was going over it with her. I stopped, and I said, “Wait, I wasn’t fully honest with you. There’s more.” She was like, “Okay.” I shared it with her, and she goes, “Okay, thank you for sharing.” I was like, “Okay, that’s it?” No reaction, nothing from – and she was just very non-judgmental. I think meeting a lot of people who are in the rooms that are just nonjudgmental because everybody has been through so much that it’s allowed me take on that perspective with others, having that compassion and lack of judgement, being accepting of others because I wasn’t able to be accepting of myself, and being completely forgiving. I think I’ve been able to adapt those virtues into the relationship with myself, being able to forgive myself, and my relationship with others. Just like Travis, it has helped me tremendously be a better parent. I’m more present with my kids. I’m more compassionate with my husband where before it was like my patience and my tolerance was so low. Yeah, it’s allowed me to have more fulfilling relationships with other people as well as with Travis. I trust Travis, and I trust what he’s doing in his recovery. When somebody is struggling and in need of a sponsor or need of a contact, I’m like, “Hey, Travis, do you want to talk to this person?” He’s a great referral source for me. Yeah, it’s just helpful to have him in my corner, and I know that, if I ever have those dark thoughts or feelings that come up – because it’s like those feelings of feeling alone or feeling rejected, that’s not forever away. I just have the tools now to work through those things that come up, and so knowing that I have Travis in my corner, that’s just another tool for me to battle those thoughts.

Casey Arrillaga: Wonderful stuff, both of you. We’ll go ahead and start just wrapping up there, and I want to thank you both so much for coming on and talking about this and sharing part of yourselves and your story and just noticing the beauty of that shift from 13, 14, 15 for both of you and saying we basically had no relationship, didn’t know how to have a relationship, weren’t even sure what it was supposed to look like or if we even wanted it. We were just off doing our own thing to being able to fast forward to this time with both of you in your own recovery and finding how much connection that brings to the two of you. I just can’t thank you enough for coming in and talking about this today.

Travis:

Of course.

Deanna: Thank you, Casey. It was fun.

Casey Arrillaga: That’s our interview with Deanna and Travis. Thanks for being with us through another episode of Addiction and the Family. As they say in many recovery meetings, take what you liked and leave the rest. Go out and explore the possibilities for recovery in your life, and give your loved ones the space and dignity to make their own choices. If you like this podcast, please subscribe. It means a lot to us. If you know anyone else who could use what we have to offer, please tell them about Addiction and the Family. If you have comments about this podcast, have a question you would like answered on the show, or want to contribute your voice, or just want to say hi, you can write to us at addictionandthefamily@gmail.com We’re also happy to be your friend on Facebook, and we can be found tweeting on Twitter.

Kira Arrillaga: Addiction and the Family is produced, written, and engineered by Kira and Casey Arrillaga, with music by Casey.

Casey Arrillaga: There will be more for you to type here!