Episode 30

What is SMART Recovery, with Lisa Davidson

June 26th, 2022

Kira Arrillaga: Welcome to Addiction and the Family, “Episode 30: What is SMART Recovery with Lisa Davidson.”

Casey Arrillaga: How has addiction affected your family?

Female Speaker: It robbed me of my father.

Female Speaker: Addiction's affected my family in absolutely every way.

Male Speaker: It has caused a lot of turmoil.

Female Speaker: It goes back to what I understand is at least three generations.

Female Speaker: It robbed my daughter of her mother. It robbed my mother of her daughter.

Female Speaker: Addiction has made our family quite challenging.

Male Speaker: Addiction has affected my family tremendously.

Male Speaker: It's affected my relationship with my sister where I wouldn't – I'd go for months without talking to her. It's a very difficult thing for everybody involved. It doesn't just affect the one individual. It's a disease that affects the whole family.

Male Speaker: Addiction is spread not only genetically through some of my relatives and I assume ancestors.

Female Speaker: It's generational.

Female Speaker: I think of him every day.

Casey Arrillaga: Welcome to Addiction and the Family, a podcast by and for family members of anyone with an addiction. My name is Casey Arrillaga, and I'm a clinical social worker and addiction counselor at both Windmill Wellness Ranch and InMindOut Emotional Wellness Centers. I’m the author of Realistic Hope: The Family Survival Guide for Facing Alcoholism and Other Addictions.

Kira Arrillaga: I’m Kira Arrillaga, addiction counselor intern and recovery coach at Windmill. Casey and I were in our addictions together for over ten years and have now been in recovery together for almost twice that long.

Casey Arrillaga: I've led hundreds of family workshops, but just as important is that Kira and I have lived the experience of being family to addiction as both children and adults.

Kira Arrillaga: Join us as we offer experience, strength, and realistic hope about how you and your family can find recovery together. In this episode, we’ll hear from Lisa Davidson. In addition to being clinical director at Windmill Wellness Ranch, and therefore my supervisor, Lisa is also a certified SMART facilitator. Lisa will share her own experience with growing up around alcoholism, developing substance use issues herself, and finding her way into recovery using the SMART tools. All this after a quick break to hear from one of our sponsors. [Commercial] Welcome back. If you have experience with addiction, you’ve heard of AA. For decades, AA’s 12 steps were the most effective way to deal with alcoholism and other addictions, but there are some great programs out there now and Lisa Davidson is here to tell you about one of them.

Casey Arrillaga: Welcome to Addiction and the Family. Would you introduce yourself briefly and tell us what are you doing on a podcast called Addiction and the Family?

Lisa Davidson: My name is Lisa Davidson. I am the clinical director out at Windmill Wellness Ranch. I’m also an addict in recovery so I am here today just to speak on recovery and what that process was like for me.

Casey Arrillaga: Wonderful, and I appreciate you’re broadcasting live from Windmill Wellness Ranch. I can hear some of the background noise, which is cool. Do you mind telling us just a little bit about how you found your way into the problem and then into the solution and what that solution has looked like for you?

Lisa Davidson: Sure, so I found my way into the problem [03:44] addict and alcoholic and so I stumbled into it because of family and genetics and all of that. I deal with mental health as well. Drugs fixed my mental health and made me feel better and so it became just a way of life. I had about a 20-year addiction with cocaine. I have been sober now for about 17 years. How I stumbled my way into recovery was I had tried several different treatment episodes, tried going to AA, tried several different programs, and nothing was actually really working for me. I was in an outpatient program. The counselor there introduced me to CBT concepts and to SMART recovery. From there, it made a lot of sense. It explained a lot of behaviors. I was able to make adjustments and start working towards recovery.

Casey Arrillaga: When you say CBT, for our audience members that might not know anything about that, could you explain what that is?

Lisa Davidson: CBT is cognitive behavioral therapy. That is a very systematic and analytical way of looking at how our thoughts control feelings and feelings control actions. For me, it made a lot of sense because I’d struggled with the spiritual aspect and so I needed something a little bit more hands on that I could wrap my brain around. That’s what that was able to do for me. I was able to get in and start challenging my thinking patterns, starting to challenge my rational beliefs, and find a healthier new way to think.

Casey Arrillaga: CBT is incorporated into SMART recovery.

Lisa Davidson: Absolutely.

Casey Arrillaga: Could you talk a little about how that works?

Lisa Davidson: CBT, basically that’s how I got into SMART was, it’s a way of slowing down looking at what are you telling yourself that makes that behavior and those actions okay. For me, looking at my addiction that is what did I tell myself that allowed it to continue. There was a lot of, well, I’m not hurting anybody but myself. I’m entitled to do this. Basically, it taught me how to look at how those thoughts were impacting my feelings and behaviors. I was able to identify a lot of my reckless, careless attitude, a lot of my hardcore thinking errors, and then challenge those, dispute them, recognize that, hey, this thinking isn’t helpful. It is harming me and leading to destructive action. SMART basically builds on those concepts. SMART recovery has basic tools. It addresses worksheets and different behaviors through CBT concepts. Their program is a four-point system. The first is it teaches you how to obtain and maintain motivation, so how to actually want to get sober, believe that you can stay sober, and that it will be a good thing. The second thing is how to manage urges and cravings. For me, doing that craving log, looking at some of my patterns in my cravings, I was able to identify patterns that led to relapse. That was very, very beneficial. The third one is handling your emotions, thoughts, and feelings. There comes the CBT concepts, recognizing those irrational thinking. Then the fourth is living a balanced lifestyle. They have a lot of tools on that, the hierarchy of values, lifestyle balancing tools, and things that had real life practical application to work a program of recovery.

Casey Arrillaga: Nice, and you talked about being able to channel underlying thinking and belief and things like that. Would you mind giving maybe an example of how does that come up? How does somebody deal with it?

Lisa Davidson: I’m just going to personalize this. For me, my belief was I am a failure. I almost looked for things to validate that. I made things almost willed it to happen. If I wasn’t good at something, I’d run and quit. If I wasn’t the best at everything, then screw it. I don’t need to do this. This isn’t going to work out for me anyways. I looked for things that supported that irrationality. By being able to get in there and look at what are those beliefs and how are they affecting me, I was able to make some changes. It just became a way of challenging and disputing those looking at myself. I also had a core belief, and this sounds horrible, but I used to have a core belief that people were stupid. It made it really easy for me to manipulate, to lie, to do the bad things that supported addiction because people were dumb anyways. Nobody’s smart enough to figure out what I’m doing. I had to really change that. That’s what CBT did is it taught me how to get to those underlying issues because the belief actually starts the sequence. The belief controls the thoughts, right? If I can address and change those underlying beliefs, then I can change my actions.

Casey Arrillaga: I’ve known a lot of people in addiction who feel like they’re better, smarter, and faster than everybody else. I know I certainly did. I had a lot of that going on. I liked to joke that I was Special Casey. Special Casey in the long run wasn’t doing that hot being Special Casey. I had to be able to get a handle on that. I appreciate you talking about some practical tools and how that’s done. Now, you mentioned that you had struggled with some of the spiritual aspect. I know that that is one of the things that can be a barrier to people getting involved in 12-step recovery, like Alcoholics Anonymous and stuff like that. Can you talk a little bit about what your journey is like with that and how did SMART recovery help?

Lisa Davidson: Originally, I did AA, because when I first was in my addiction, that was all that was available. In the ‘70s and ‘80s it was AA. I tried to do that. I personally struggled with that because I don’t have that spiritual connection. I don’t have that higher power. I’d go to the meetings. I’d listen. I’d do what was told, but it wasn’t clicking for me. It wasn’t really working. That’s one thing I love about SMART is it's about individualizing it. It’s about finding what works for you. SMART doesn’t belief that it’s just SMART and that’s the only way. If you want to combine SMART with AA and have the cognitive aspect of it, the more scientific approach with the spiritual, you can do that. That’s kind of where I had started is I did AA and then I added SMART into it. Then I found that SMART just actually was a better fit for me and so being able to transform into that. There’s not a one size fits all. I think you really have to in recovery individualize it to what’s going to work for you. SMART is way more like that. It’s not as structured and as formal as AA. There’s some definite differences because we don’t have sponsors. It can be very challenging because SMART standing for self-management and recovery training and so it is very much empowering yourself to make those decisions, which is what really spoke true to me is I wanted to empower myself to do something different.

Casey Arrillaga: Now, does SMART recovery ignore or push away the spiritual aspect?

Lisa Davidson: Absolutely not. They encourage you to make your program for you. Ideally, I think working both programs gives you that spiritual side and the scientific side to it, but no, whatever works for you, you can incorporate that into SMART recovery. Sometimes doing that spiritual and the analytic side, you can create that balance in your recovery.

Casey Arrillaga: I hear you saying SMART recovery doesn’t say this is the one and only way. There certainly are people in 12-step recovery that will say this is the way. If you don’t do this, you’re going to die. Nothing else really works. From what I’ve seen, the literature of 12-step recovery doesn’t say that. It doesn’t say this is the one and only way. In fact, they say look for other things that can help you and all that kind of stuff. Now, I know in your work at Windmill Wellness Ranch, where I also work so full disclosure obviously, we do work with people around SMART recovery, we work with 12-step recovery, and we encourage people to do both or at least explore both and see what works best for them. What have you seen professionally in your work around how that works for people?

Lisa Davidson: Statistically, those that do both programs have a higher rate of success. That’s one thing I love about Windmill is it’s not you have to do this and that’s the only option. We have SLA. We have NA. We have AA. We have SMART. We do encourage that combination of the programs. Like I said, statistically, those that do both because they’re addressing multiple issues, not just the spiritual but also what’s cognitively going on inside your head, they tend to do better in the long term.

Casey Arrillaga: If I can, you mentioned that this is something that also was part of your family patterns before you, which is pretty common. I ask any of our guests that come on, especially if they’re talking about their own recovery, what kind of family patterns you might have noticed both growing up and then also now that you’re in recovery what kind of family patterns, maybe you can recognize now that you didn’t recognize then. Would you mind speaking to that a little bit?

Lisa Davidson: Sure, absolutely. I come from a long family history of alcoholism. It started with paternal and maternal grandparents. My mom was an alcoholic. She actually passed away of cirrhosis. A lot of mental health issues in my family from depression, bipolar, anxiety, there was just a lot of trends, a lot of legal addictive behaviors as well, and so a lot of overlap in some of those. Growing up, I watched my family go to AA. I watched them try to work a program in recovery. No one in my family, besides myself, was actually able to get sober. I watched that addictive trait continue. Ironically, I never drank alcohol because I didn’t want to be like my family. Unfortunately, that led me to other substances so in my mind that was rational and that was better because at least I’m not going into that family pattern. We had a lot of the ACLA traits within our family, the hero child, the escape goat, the lost child. Part of my recovery was wanting to break those cycles within my own family unit. I was able to get sober before my son was born and so I have been able to break that. One of the things that I do in order to keep that pattern grow is I share that with my son. I share that with my family so that they know, hey, there’s a higher rate that you could fall into these patterns and these habits, but also to never forget where I came from and who I am. Because I think that’s important in order to break those patterns and cycles, you have to remember and you have to keep them fresh every day.

Casey Arrillaga: That maybe speaks to something because I know that 12-step recovery will say once you’re in, you’re in for life. You should never stop doing this. From what I’ve seen in SMART recovery, they don’t really say the same thing. They say take what you like, leave the rest, stick around for a while if you want, you don’t have to. First, I want to hear your thoughts on that and then also what kept you sticking around.

Lisa Davidson: You’re absolutely right. SMART doesn’t believe this is a lifelong commitment. They believe that addiction is a matter of choice. It’s habits. Any time that you address the habit or the choice, you can make other choices that you can stop that behavior. For me, that provided a lot of optimism and hope because and this is just personally speaking, if I look at it as a disease and a lifelong process, that also gives me an excuse because I can blame it on something, right? I needed to not be able to blame it on something. I needed to say, okay, I choose not to have this in my life anymore. What keeps me coming around is just being able to pass that word on to others and help others find this same journey because SMART is fairly new. It’s only been in practice since 1994. I want as many people to find other choices that could help sustain their recovery. For me, that’s what keeps me around is spreading the word, sending that hope out, and getting the knowledge to continue for people.

Casey Arrillaga: I noticed you talked about your family members being in and out of AA or trying to find recovery themselves. You said you’re the only one that’s really been able to sustain sobriety.

Lisa Davidson: Yes.

Casey Arrillaga: Which first, I’m sorry to hear that. That I imagine is difficult. I also wonder. Did any of them ever try SMART recovery?

Lisa Davidson: No, like I said, my mom had passed away in 2002. SMART was just coming out and getting known back at time. Towards the end of her addiction, she pretty much was in full-blown active addiction and so she had stopped working that program by that time until, unfortunately, I wasn’t able to share that with her, but I think that’s why I’m a big advocate up here for SMART is that I want to share that option with other people and let them know there are choices, that it’s about spreading that word and continuing to educate yourself on tools that can help sustain recovery.

Casey Arrillaga: If it’s okay that I ask this, does that bother you that your mom didn’t get a chance to see maybe the things that helped you?

Lisa Davidson: Absolutely, because my grandfather died of cirrhosis. My mom died of cirrhosis from drinking. I like to believe that they can look down and see that I am in recovery, that I have been able to stop that cycle, because I know deep down inside, it bothered my mom. I think if she could’ve stopped, she would’ve stopped. She didn’t want that lifestyle for her or for us. Absolutely I wish SMART was around sooner and maybe this would’ve turned out differently, but you have to accept the reality of what is.

Casey Arrillaga: Yeah, you mentioned with your own son you were able to get sober, which is great, before he was born. I missed it by two years. My daughter was two years old when I got into recovery. I certainly am very happy that I got in when I did, but I think back like, oh, well, if only and maybe if I found it a few years earlier. I can very much understand those feelings. I made a conscious effort when my daughter was growing up that I wasn’t going to tell her you need to be in recovery but here are some things that have helped me. I taught her some of the tools in a, should I say, civilian form. I wondered. Do you ever find yourself using some of the CBT or SMART stuff like on your son but maybe teaching him some of those skills for when he needs them?

Lisa Davidson: Absolutely, and ironically, I think my son knows how to do a thinking report. By the time he was like ten years old, he’ll go around the house and he’d be like, “Mom, you’re not a victim. Stop feeling sorry for yourself,” but these tools have real life practical applications. It’s not just for addiction. It’s not just for alcohol. My son actually has some depression and so we used the SMART tools to help with his depression. We’ll sit down and do an ABCDE tool, which is a SMART tool that teaches you how to look at the thoughts. We do that together. We do a CBA tool to look at the cost-benefit analysis of being depressed versus putting an effort to be happy. Yeah, these tools are great. They do have friends and family version. It’s kind of like Al Anon but for SMART family members. It teaches them how to use these tools in everyday practical applications.

Casey Arrillaga: Again, since this is a program that lots of people listen to but I know a lot of family members do, could you talk a little bit more about SMART family and friends and what that’s like?

Lisa Davidson: Sure, so SMART friends and family, they do meetings on it just like they would for SMART program. There just is more of the family members, their struggles, how they’re dealing with living it, making their recovery independent from the person in recovery. They have a whole separate workbook and handouts and tools that are more geared towards them that go over things such as teaching you how to set boundaries, how to protect your own emotional state. They’re very valuable. They offer online and in-person meetings. It’s family members helping each other heal, building that fellowship and that support system for family members that have people in addiction. SMART toolbox, they have actually online meetings that you can attend that are all over the world. It’s interesting. You can go join a meeting in a different country. It’s a really good network for family members as well.

Casey Arrillaga: We use that with our family members at Windmill. We do our own SMART recovery family and friends meeting once a week. We get family involved in some of those resources, get some of the alumni coming in talking about them, stuff like that I appreciate you mentioning the workbook because I know that sometimes when people are looking for a meeting or they’re new to the idea of going to recovery fellowship, they might be uncertain about going to a meeting or not sure if they’re going to share on it, but they could at least pick up the workbook. In your experience, if somebody says, hey, I’m just going to pick up the workbook or pick up the literature, how much benefit can they get from that if they’re not attending meetings?

Lisa Davidson: A ton. Those workbooks are designed, like I said, with real life practical application tools. Even if you’re like a little weary about jumping in full heartedly, attending the meetings, the workbooks are a great place to start because you’re getting familiar with the concepts and the tools. Then you could always add that aspect in. Obviously, going to the meetings gives you that fellowship, that comradery, recognizing that you’re not alone in this, that there are other family members out there. There’s definitely a benefit from combining the two, but it’s never a bad thing just to start with the workbook and the tools and the application and putting them into practice in your life.

Kira Arrillaga: We’re going to take a quick break to hear from one of our sponsors and then we’ll be back with more from Lisa Davidson. [Commercial] Welcome back. Here’s the rest of Casey’s interview with Lisa Davidson.

Casey Arrillaga: Since SMART recovery is newer, people obviously have questions like, well, does it work or is it effective and all that kind of thing. What have you seen personally and what have you seen professionally?

Lisa Davidson: Personally, it’s worked great for me. Like I said, this is all that I do is SMART and CBT. The one thing that I love is it not only addresses the addiction, it addresses my mental health as well. I use those tools to manage my depression and my bipolar. Statistically, it does very, very well for those that have cooccurring disorders. Personally, I am a big advocate. I think the program works great. Professionally, since we offer it here at the Ranch, I’ve seen people succeed and soar and do well with SMART. I’ve also seen people combine the programs and do exceptionally well just as if they were doing one or the other. I think it’s a valuable asset and tool. We look at longevity to see and it’s pretty much equal with the AA program. What’s we’re seeing is that the numbers are there. Whether you do SMART or AA or NA, if you’re putting in that effort to maintain the tools and to actually use them, chances of succeeding are high.

Casey Arrillaga: The big study that I read that really alerted me to the idea that these things were all doing well running neck and neck pointed out that there were four major factors that they identified that they had in common for people. One, the obvious one, is if the person committed staying sober. Seems like a no brainer, but people who say, “I want to stay sober for life,” do much better than people who don’t. Second one was that comradery of getting phone numbers of people in between meetings so they have someone – meet someone at a meeting, be able to talk to them in between. I’m going to say that goes just as much for the family members getting phone numbers, talk to other people who are in the same boat. The third one was actually volunteering to help out in some way at the meeting.

Lisa Davidson: Yes.

Casey Arrillaga: In-person meetings, I can say I’ve set up and broken down a lot of folding metal chairs, but even in online meeting, I’ll say, hey, can somebody keep time while people share, little volunteer opportunities. The fourth one is leading a meeting. Now, in 12-step meetings, a lot of times they’ll say, well, once you have 30 days sober, here’s the script. Just read this out loud. You’re leading the meeting now. What’s involved in somebody leading a meeting with SMART recovery?

Lisa Davidson: SMART is a little bit different. It’s not about length of time. You actually have to be a certified facilitator in order to lead a SMART meeting. It’s an online format. You could sign up to take it. I believe it’s 11 or 12 modules. After each module, there’s an assessment to make sure that you are gaining and retaining those knowledge and those skills. Then you have an overall exam to take. Then once you pass that, you actually get a certificate of completion and you’re able to start mentoring and having your own meetings. I always encourage people, the more you’re involved, the more you’re doing, it’s important because it is fairly new. It can be challenging to find meetings, especially in rural areas or smaller communities. If you liked the program, you get certified in it, then you can go and facilitate and run your own meetings and bring that to your area. That’s a great way to promote and stay within the program.

Casey Arrillaga: Is that something anyone could do or do you have to have a special college degree or anything? What’s that look like?

Lisa Davidson: No, that’s open for anybody. You don’t have to have a degree. You don’t have to be in the counseling field. You just have to have the interest and the desire to do it. You get online. You register. You go through that. I think it took me about three months to get through all the modules. It is self-paced so you work at your pace. The one thing challenging is it is didactic learning, so to go from paper to an actual meeting can be a challenge for some people, but there’s no right or wrong way with SMART. SMART isn’t so structured and routine. It’s more about sharing and offering feedback and support. It’s a much more relaxed atmosphere. It’s just about getting people together. It's a fellowship.

Casey Arrillaga: That seems to be, again, one of those big common factors that helps people with whatever fellowship they’re in is just being able to just connect with the others, talk to people, relate to people, share, and that’s so important. You mentioned a couple of different tools. Would you mind maybe picking one and walking our audience through what it's like to use that tool?

Lisa Davidson: Sure, the one that most people seem to like the best is what we call an ABCDE tool. Basically, you start at the column C, which is the consequence, that’s the emotion or the behavior. A lot of times people don’t know what the event is that caused it but they know that I’m angry. I’m acting out. I’m upset. I’m sad. I’m frustrated. That’s where starting at that C column, identifying those consequence, what’s going on. Then you jump over to the A column. Once you identify that I’m feeling frustrated, irritated, angry, what caused that? The A is what we call the activating event. Maybe I got into a fight with my spouse which led to those feelings, right? The B column is what you do third and that is the belief, right? Those are your thoughts. What are you telling yourself that allowed you to get angry over that event, over that fight with the spouse? He doesn’t understand. He never listens to me. I’m all alone in this. It’s really looking at what are the thoughts that are keeping me stuck in those consequences. The part that I love the best, because most of us stay in that ABC column. We know I’m angry. We know why I’m angry. We know what’s running in our head, but we don’t know what to do about it. We don’t see the solution. We stay stuck in the problem. Through the D and the E column, we’re able to dispute those irrational thinking. Does he really never listen? Does he not understand? Has he not been there to support me? It’s disputing that irrationally. That part can be very challenging because B is a habit, right? Those beliefs and thoughts, it’s a habit. How do we dispute that? How do we think in a different way, right? Then the E column is the effective new thinking. What’s going to support you not feeling angry and getting you to a healthier relationship? He’s always been there for me in the past. He supports and loves me. We have a great relationship. What are the new thoughts that are going to sustain you having a healthy, happy relationship versus feeling angry and discontent over a conflict, right? I love that tool because not only does it identify the irrationality and put it up in my face and the consequences of it, it’s solution, right? It’s how do I want to feel and what am I willing to do to change that thinking. That’s a great tool ABCDE, very much CBT-based because it’s getting inside of your head. How did those thoughts cause me to feel and how does that impact my behaviors? That D and E to me is where most people find it to be the most challenging because that’s a whole new way of thinking, a whole new habit, but I think that’s the most beneficial. The great thing is when you go to SMART meetings, they tend to pull the tools into the meetings. As people are sitting there processing their struggles of what’s going on, they say, okay, what tool would be beneficial and how do we use that, and then they pull it up on the board. Everybody walks through that and gets support and feedback on that tool. That’s really important because other people’s perspectives can also help challenge that irrational thinking.

Casey Arrillaga: Anything else that you want to say about SMART recovery to family members that may be listening and hearing this all for the first time?

Lisa Davidson: Absolutely, I just encourage you to be open to try something new. Be open to a different way of thinking. Be open to supporting that individual if they choose SMART. Learn about it. Get involved. Get active. The more fellowship, the more you guys can relate, the better it’s going to be in that recovery for them and for you. Sit down together. Go over the SMART tools. Go over the workbooks. Create that fellowship in this program. SMART can be challenging because it doesn’t have sponsors as AA does. However, it has mentors and it has people that lead that program. That’s where it’s really important to be that mentor, to be that guide, and to help. A lot of times I think we get so caught up into the addict and their thoughts and their feelings that we forget to look at our own and so SMART can be a very vital tool to help you look at what’s going on with you as well so that you can heal. Give it a try. Combine the programs. If you’re very spiritual and you like that aspect, combine the two programs. Go to Al Anon and go to SMART friends and family. Find the traits and the qualities that you like about each program and then make them your own. Make them work for you.

Casey Arrillaga: That brings up a point also, what do you say to somebody who says my child or my spouse is going to AA. Do I need to go to Al Anon or could they go to 12-step recovery and I’m going to go to SMART and we’ll just each have our own thing going on?

Lisa Davidson: You can. Absolutely you can. However, it can be challenging because if you’re doing SMART and they don’t know or understand some of those tools, they’re going to be looking at you going, well, what’s ABCDE, what’s a CBA. They’re going to question what some of those tools are. Same thing if they’re doing SMART and you’re doing the step work and they don’t understand some of that, it can make it challenging, but it can also make it very mutually beneficial because then you’re bringing two different perspectives in to work together. They very much can work together cohesively.

Casey Arrillaga: Very nice. We’ll move towards the end of our interview. I guess I’ll ask Lisa any last thoughts you want to summarize for people listening to this program.

Lisa Davidson: Just find what works for you. Don’t be afraid to step outside the box and try new things, combine things. Recovery is very individualized. You have to find your rhythm. Get that fellowship. Get that support. SMART can be a wonderful asset and tool to help in your recovery journey. They have a plethora of resources online. They have what’s called the SMART toolbox which has all the worksheets. It also has videos and things that you can watch. They have an online community. There’s pretty much a meeting going on every hour of the day. Get involved. Get active. Work your program of recovery so you can heal and you can make a change in your life.

Casey Arrillaga: That would be smartrecovery.org?

Lisa Davidson: Absolutely.

Casey Arrillaga: We encourage people to go check that out. If you have an opportunity, go check out Windmill Wellness Ranch and look Lisa up and see how she’s doing. Lisa, what a pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on the show. It’s been great talking with you today.

Lisa Davidson: Thank you very much, Casey.

Casey Arrillaga: Thanks for being with us through another episode of Addiction and the Family. As they say in many recovery meetings, take what you liked and leave the rest. Go out and explore the possibilities for recovery in your life and give your loved ones the space and dignity to make their own choices. If you liked this podcast, please subscribe. It means a lot to us. If you know anyone else who could use what we have to offer, please tell them about Addiction and the Family. If you have comments about this podcast, have a question you’d like answered on the show, or want to contribute your voice, or just want to say hi, you can write to us at addictionandthefamily@gmail.com. We’re also happy to be your friend on Facebook and we can be found tweeting on Twitter.

Kira Arrillaga: Addiction and the Family is produced, written, and engineered by Kira and Casey Arrillaga, with music by Casey.